Now here's a Democrat I'd like to have a beer with. (OK, you too, pinko commie friend.)
Orson Scott Card: Would the Last Honest Reporter Please Turn On the Lights?
Via Powerline. Also via them is this post: "I Was Born In Colombia, But I Was Made in the USA."
Posted by Sarah at October 21, 2008 09:57 PM | TrackBackI was about to be offended and then I saw you'd have a beer with me, too. So we're cool. :)
Posted by: Sis B at October 21, 2008 10:55 PMFirst of all - next time you're back in the motherland we'll have that beer.
Second, in response to that article I'll just say this - I don't expect journalists to tell the truth I expect them to sell advertising. That's just the way it is. We want to be able to make our money and keep it? Well then don't disparage someone for making thier dollar, and don't expect them to be honest before profitable.
I don't expect either candidate to be good, trustworthy or honest, I expect them to pander to win a popularity contest. I expect their supporters to promote what is good about them and completely hide what isn't. Shameful at times, but both sides are pretty guilty of it. I certainly don't vote Dem with pride.
- trr
Posted by: Sarah's Pinko Commie friend at October 21, 2008 11:52 PMI don't think anyone expects unbiased truth from the media, except the media themselves, who claim to be providing it. It is the profound dishonesty that offends so many.
You are unlikely to get a beer with Mr. Card, sorry to say, as I'm 99% sure he is LDS. =)
Posted by: Sig at October 22, 2008 08:38 AMOh yeah, crap Sig...I did know that.
OK, a milkshake :)
trr is the poster child for the Democrat Party, expect nothing and care even less about the consequences. Hell, considering their track record of failed policies, (the top ten poorest cities are run by D’s), it all makes perfect sense.
Also, thanks for enlightening me on the reasoning behind Obama’s support. Just take away reason and accountability from the average person…and you’ll find some of that Hope/Change.
You couldn’t be a more perfect example of why I’m a Republican. Thanks.
And who you trying to kid, you don’t drink beer, you reek of w(h)ine.
Hi Tim,
Tasty personal attack! I highly doubt that I'm the Democratic posterchild. Truthfully I don't feel that my beliefs are all that different from the average Republican's. I'm all for gun rights and pro life, and whatever talking points you want to throw out there. Having said that, I'd like to address your comment about "expecting nothing" and "not caring about the consequences." I'll stand by not expecting much from a Presidential candidate for a number of reasons. First, the Presidents is in Washington and I live in middle America. If I want change in middle America I should be doing something about it here, not expecting Washington to do it for me. While I should be able to trust that positivity will come (and let's be honest, it did from Clinton, it did from Bush, it will from McCain or Obama) I don't expect the person in the chair to set the tone for the direction my life and affairs will take. So, in essence, I think I take alot of responsibility for my own consequences and that which I have influence over.
This is what I don't get - the bile on both sides and the willingness to attach so vehemently. Right now, I think its bad for either party to control all 3 branches. I think this country requires both viewpoints, as neither is all the way correct. The Republican agenda generally has alot of good things going for it and a few black marks (in my opinion) that I can't square with. Having said that, often I vote D based on what I expect the candidate to actually accomplish as opposed to the ideology involved. Different strokes for different folks. I can foresee a day where the issue that I support the D's for to be "handled" to my satisfaction and I might very well vote R with a clear conscience.
Oh, and you're right, I'm not a beer drinker, or even a w(h)ine drinker as you suggested. I can't handle much more than a diet caffeine-free Dr. Pepper being such a weak-willed lefty and all. (Insert jokey emoticon here)
- trr
Posted by: Sarah's Pinko Commie Friend at October 22, 2008 04:48 PM“I'm all for gun rights and pro life, and whatever talking points you want to throw out there.”
So to you, the 2nd Amendment and the rights of an unborn child are merely “talking points”? I’d say they are just a tad more than that and evidently above your pay grade.
“I'll stand by not expecting much from a Presidential candidate for a number of reasons.
First, the Presidents is in Washington and I live in middle America. If I want change in middle America I should be doing something about it here, not expecting Washington to do it for me.”
So you can’t comprehend that what happens in Washington actually affects and has the potential to change your life ALL the way over in “Middle America”?
So when Pres. Obama, (no, I’m not conceding), in Washington, raising taxes, and he will, you won’t be affected ‘cause your WAY over there?
While I commend you on you attitude of “not expecting Washington to do it for me” I don’t see the correlation to your (incorrect) theory that what happens in Washington stays in Washington. Can I assume you’ve heard of the Supreme Court? By they way, the next president will probably appoint 4/5 new justices. Though don’t worry, what they decide won’t affect anything where you live.
“While I should be able to trust that positivity will come (and let's be honest, it did from Clinton, it did from Bush, it will from McCain or Obama)”
It would depend on what you mean by positivity and since that’s seems to be such a broad term, I’ll let that one go.
“I don't expect the person in the chair to set the tone for the direction my life and affairs will take.”
I don’t know anybody who believes otherwise. So again, you’re mixing apples and oranges.
“So, in essence, I think I take alot of responsibility for my own consequences and that which I have influence over.”
Tell me again why you’re a Democrat…
“This is what I don't get - the bile on both sides and the willingness to attach so vehemently.”
I don’t have a problem with our politicians being passionate about the views and principles they hold. Hell, I want them to be. Their jobs involve serious issues that impact us all, well not you apparently, and have the potential to impact us in various ways.
But lying, conniving and being untruthful are unacceptable, yes. And I’m not a fan of nuanced, double speak that is favored by lawyers like the Obama’s , Clinton’s and the Edward’s.
“The Republican agenda generally has alot of good things going for it and a few black marks (in my opinion) that I can't square with.”
And so you’re a Democrat because…
“Having said that, often I vote D based on what I expect the candidate to actually accomplish as opposed to the ideology involved.”
I don’t see how a candidate will meet you expectations without relying on their ideology, that being their beliefs and ideas? What else is left, Hope/Change?
Though I guess since you don’t expect “much from a Presidential candidate” I can see why you’re a Democrat and why no doubt you’ll be voting for Obama. ‘The Democrat Party –expect nothing, ‘cause that’s what we deliver.’
“I can foresee a day where the issue that I support the D's for to be "handled" to my satisfaction and I might very well vote R with a clear conscience.”
WTF are you trying to say?
You need to figure out what you believe in and pick a party that honors those beliefs. To say you’re confused about which party represents your views is a major understatement. It doesn’t make you a bad person, I’m just sayin’…
Ok, here we go.
"So to you, the 2nd Amendment and the rights of an unborn child are merely “talking points”? I’d say they are just a tad more than that and evidently above your pay grade."
Comments about my pay grade notwithstanding my point was that I don't blindly commit to either party's ideology. some things I think the dems have "right" some things the Republicans have better.
"So you can’t comprehend that what happens in Washington actually affects and has the potential to change your life ALL the way over in “Middle America”?"
I can comprehend it just fine, its just that the only influence I have is a voice every few years. Therefore I don't sweat it, I deal with what comes and take responsibility for what I can control.
"Tell me again why you’re a Democrat…"
Never claimed to be one. Often I vote Dem. Sometimes I might not. I vote the candidate and what I expect them to be able to control as neither party has it all right and I don't feel obligated to throw in my lot with either.
"I don’t see how a candidate will meet you expectations without relying on their ideology, that being their beliefs and ideas? What else is left, Hope/Change?"
My expectations are don't embarass me, don't get me killed, and leave it better than you found it. Their ideology certainly matters, but doesnt set the tone since there are other branches of government that influence what legislation is passed. The president is one cog in the wheel - important to be sure, but not he end-all and be all. I don't want either party in control of all 3 branches, therefore sometimes I like the pres to be a Dem and sometimes not.
"WTF are you trying to say?"
What I mean is that I support the Dem agenda when it comes to ending abstinence-only sex-ed, gay rights, a diminshing of pandering to the religious right, etc. That's how I feel and I respect that others feel differently. There are some things that I expect to be addressed as time goes on. The Dems seem to be more about enforcing a perceived equality. On certain issues, I think we still need that approach. On others (affirmative action for instance) I think we need to rely on the fact that opportunity does exist rather than trying to force it.
"You need to figure out what you believe in and pick a party that honors those beliefs. To say you’re confused about which party represents your views is a major understatement. It doesn’t make you a bad person, I’m just sayin’…"
I know exactly what I believe in. And I'm not confised about which party represents my views because neither does a very good job of representing me. I will say this - the politics of the last few years have promoted the idea that each person should be able to be summed up by adherance to one party's ideology or the other. I just disagree with this. Some Democratic policies make me very uncomfortable.
redistribution of wealth for instance - I run a business and I want to keep my money! How about socialized health care? I really don't think that's going to solve anything. But as I said before there are a few things that the Republican ticket promotes that I don't buy into. Ergo, I may be represented by either party or neither, but don't try to sell me that I have to cast my lot with one other. I think its rather dismissive to judge someone as confused because they don't feel that their beliefs align perfectly with a given party.
At any rate, I appreciate your response. I realize that I probably don't hold that same values as many of Sarah's loyal readers. Having said that, I can admit that the views expressed on this blog have helped to shape my own beliefs, and I hope that the "other side of the aisle" can see the why there are differing opinions.
- trr
Posted by: Sarah's pinko commie firend at October 23, 2008 06:06 PM*eating popcorn*
I come here today to watch the intellectual volley between Tim, and the Pinko
Posted by: awtm at October 24, 2008 11:00 AMWell, I don’t want to disappoint awtm…the popcorn smells great…
“I don't blindly commit to either party's ideology.”
Didn’t expect you too, I don’t. I suspect most people don’t.
“…, its just that the only influence I have is a voice every few years. Therefore I don't sweat it, I deal with what comes and take responsibility for what I can control.”
No, you only have one vote. You can influence people with your words and actions and do I dare say, you can join a party and/or an organization(s) (NFIB, US Chamber of Commerce, etc.) that best represents your views and values.
“Often I vote Dem.”
That would make a Dem.
“What I mean is that I support the Dem agenda when it comes to ending abstinence-only sex-ed, gay rights, a diminshing of pandering to the religious right, etc.”
Sex-Ed in the late 70’s was NOT abstinence-only sex-ed so I doubt it is now.
Gays don’t have rights? Really, didn’t realize that. Is that so important to you, are you gay? And I’m not asking derogatorily, I don’t care what you or anybody does in their bedroom.
What wrong with the religious right? I’m an atheist and I don’t have a problem with the R’s in regard to this. I hardly think they pander.
“The Dems seem to be more about enforcing a perceived equality.”
Now we’re getting to the meat of it all. The Dem’s want to take from the ‘Have’s’, people that have earned what they have, and give it to the ‘Have Nots’, people who are were they are because of no fault but their own. This is the fundamental difference between the Party’s.
“I know exactly what I believe in. And I'm not confised about which party represents my views because neither does a very good job of representing me. I will say this - the politics of the last few years have promoted the idea that each person should be able to be summed up by adherance to one party's ideology or the other. I just disagree with this.”
Most people are able to prioritize things that matter the most to them and figure out which party best represents them the best. Me, I’m for national security, low taxes, less government, this are the things that make me an R. I’ve always viewed people such as yourself as a lot like bisexuals- make up your freakin’ mind already. If you don’t belong to party how do you expect to have a voice? Last time I checked, Independents didn’t have a convention, nor a candidate running for POTUS. You’re in the creek without a paddle or a chance.
“Some Democratic policies make me very uncomfortable. redistribution of wealth for instance - I run a business and I want to keep my money! How about socialized health care? I really don't think that's going to solve anything.”
Agreed, I’m a small business owner myself. So you’ll be voting for McCain then right? I would think this would take precedent over gay rights, sex ed. and such.
“Ergo, I may be represented by either party or neither, but don't try to sell me that I have to cast my lot with one other. I think its rather dismissive to judge someone as confused because they don't feel that their beliefs align perfectly with a given party.”
Again, most people aren’t in lock step with their respective party. But most people pick a party based on what is important to them, what BEST represents their values and beliefs. I apologize for my dismissiveness and it seems we have more in common than not.
Anyways good chatting with ya’. Sorry if my answers were too brief, time is short today and there was much, probably too much, to cover in this exchange.
Guess I gotta chime in also. I'm out of town and on my iPhone and I can't cut and paste.
As far as only having one vote, well I don't even really get that with the electoral college and all. And really I'm not interested in influencing you or anyone else for that matter. No offense, just live and let live I guess. That's why I describe myself as liberal with a small "l" rather than a member of the Liberal movement. Still, often voting Dem doesn't make me a Dem - I'm voting Obama but I'd happily vote in republican to take over for our embarrassment of a (dem) governor.
My sex-we comment was directed towards Bush's financing of religious based abstinence-only sex we programs. I also happen to think religious organizations should be tax exempt, but that's an argument for another time. If you don't feel that the republicans pander to the religious right then I can absolutely respect that, personally I feel that they do - your take is as good as mine.
As far as committing to a party, I'm just not convinced in the value. I vote for who I think is best at the time. Just because someone has "D" or "R" in front on their name doesn't make them right and I won't vote for the wrong guy out of some silly-assed (IMO) party loyalty. Like I said before, I wouldn't vote for our governor even though he's a dem - I think he's the wrong guy. Likewise I'm not voting McCain, I think he's the wrong guy. You're right, independants don't get a candidate- I only get to choose beteween two options and I'm not giving up one because someone else wants me to "stay loyal".
As far as national security, low taxes and small governmentare concerned I'm in agreement. I don't buy into the fact that the president is responsible for natsec - I trust the organizations and pros to do that regardless of who's in the white house. As much as I'd like low taxes we've gotten ourselves into an unenviable Economic condition and if we need to pay the piper then so be it. I doubt you or I or any of Sarah's other worthy constituents caused that situation, but it's our country nonetheless and we've got to take responsibility. Just like the conflict in Iraq- personally I was against it. Nevertheless I think we made the decision and we have to take the responsibility to see it through no matter how long it takes. Having said that, if we can pay the bills and turn the economy around without raising my taxes then I'm all for that.
Alright, I think I've states my case and I'm sick of typing on this little iphone. Keep the popcorn warm for me.
- trr
Posted by: Sarah's pinko commie friend at October 25, 2008 12:45 AM“As far as only having one vote, well I don't even really get that with the electoral college and all.”
Ah come on man, certainly you understand how it works, how individuals votes actually count toward the Elec. Coll., right?
“As far as national security, low taxes and small governmentare concerned I'm in agreement. I don't buy into the fact that the president is responsible for natsec”
You really don’t understand what a president can and cannot do, do you?
How’s this –
“I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems. [snip] I will set a goal of a world without nuclear weapons. To seek that goal, I will not develop new nuclear weapons. I will seek a global ban on the production of fissile material. And I will negotiate with Russia to take our ICBM’s off hair-trigger alert.”
see here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o84PE871BE
That’s from the man you are going to vote for. Sleep tight.
“Nevertheless I think we made the decision and we have to take the responsibility to see it through no matter how long it takes.”
Again, your man Obama wants TO GET OUT!!! Gezz, dude why the eff are you voting for a guy who is totally at odds with what you seem to value the most? Please watch the video, its’ in his own words!
And I AM trying to influence you and anyone who is reading this. Get the facts, educate yourself, don’t take my word for it. Vote for the person who best represents what you determine is most important to you. More importantly don’t cling to flowery words and just blindly go along with the crowd.
I’m going now and bang my head against the wall, maybe then I’ll understand the Hope/Change thing you people are grasping at. ARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!
trr,
Chew on this-
Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) of Fannie-gate fame, announced yesterday that he wants a 25% cut in military spending.
AND (same article)-
House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nation’s $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.
Read it all-
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/10/it-has-begun-dem-leaders-call-for-25.html#comments
Yup, don't know why I'm a R, nope can't figure it out...
Hope/Change
Posted by: tim at October 25, 2008 02:43 PM"Ah come on man, certainly you understand how it works, how individuals votes actually count toward the Elec. Coll., right?"
Yup, I get it, its more the issue that some folks believe in one-man-one-vote and that's not really how it works. I live in Illinois - my vote is pretty much unimportant as my state's E-votes are going to the Dems.
"You really don’t understand what a president can and cannot do, do you?"
I get it plenty - what I'm saying is that the president isn't doing the work. Budgets and all that don't worry me - like most of us the people who are tasked with taking care of us will make do with what they have. Also, the president may have an agenda, but there are 2 other branches of government to temper that agenda.
I sleep fine - our military is the most dominant on the planet. Nuclear threats don't worry me - its individuals that we have to worry about these days. This is more of a personal thing now - law enforcement and men-on-the-ground less than missle systems and what not. Are you really still worried about negotiating with Russia?
I get that he wants the pull-out and I'm not necessarily in favor of that. But don't make the mistake of presuming that you understand what I value most.
Once again the "you people" commentary is what I object to, as is your assertions that someone should pick a side and stick with it. That's the problem with the politics of the last 8 years (of which both sides are guilty). I refuse to buy into "you're either with us or against us" - look, I log into this site because Sarah is an old-school friend of mine. I don't dismiss all Republicans with judgmental commentary and empty generalizations. I genuinely feel that I understand the Republican agenda much more than I used to, and I agree with some of it. I don't buy into hope/change either. Its kinda why I've bothered to remain in this discussion - I don't think that all Republicans are war-mongering rednecks or any other silly stereotype you want to apply, nor do I think its fair to apply to the Dems (even though once again I don't consider myself a Dem).
If it had come down to say Huckabee and Clinton I would've voted Huckabee. If it had been Romney/Clinton I'd have had quite a quandry as I really don't believe in either. Ergo, I vote the sitution and not the party. Right now McCain doesn't fill me with confidence. I think he has no opinion of his own, and he's allowing a campaign to determine his future. Now before you roast me on that, Obama and any other candidate will do the same thing. I just dont feel that McCain is a guy I can trust to do the job - I trust Obama to makes speeches and deal on his feet than McCain. I trust him to make decisions better than McCain and what I have to go on is their campaigns at this point. McCain has run a scattered, pandering campaign. That's my take. I believe that Obama is the lesser of two evils at this point. Not necessarilty a desirable candidate, but I only get 2 choices.
I'd love to see Obama come in as president and see the house or senate go back to the Republicans. I would think we'd get a little more moderate decision making on the issues that you and I are concerned about (taxes, economy, security, etc).
time to put this discussion to bed yet?
“Yup, I get it, its more the issue that some folks believe in one-man-one-vote and that's not really how it works.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Electoral_College
The Constitution allows each state legislature to designate a method of choosing electors. Forty-eight states and the District of Columbia have adopted a winner-take-all popular vote rule where voters choose between statewide slates of electors pledged to vote for a specific presidential and vice presidential candidate. The candidate that wins the most votes in the state wins the support of all of that state’s electors.
As I said…
“I get that he wants the pull-out and I'm not necessarily in favor of that. But don't make the mistake of presuming that you understand what I value most.”
My bad, I guess just assumed you realized the implications of leaving Iraq in disgrace would have on our national security, which you did stated is an important issue you.
“If it had come down to say Huckabee and Clinton I would've voted Huckabee.”
So you like Huck versus Hill’s but not McCain versus Obama?
“I just dont feel that McCain is a guy I can trust to do the job - I trust Obama to makes speeches and deal on his feet than McCain. I trust him to make decisions better than McCain and what I have to go on is their campaigns at this point”
What are you basing your trust on Obama with? What has he done, accomplished or otherwise demonstrated to you that he would “make decisions better than McCain”?
McCain stuck he neck out for the Surge and Obama wanted to leave. There’s a decision that you stated you were on the “stay & win” side on but yet…you feel Obama “make decisions better than McCain”.
By “make decisions better than McCain” do you mean choose to be associated with American hating, racists, domestic terrorists, Israel hating/Hezbollah loving, etc, etc. etc. a$$holes?
Have you ever wondered why these people seem so drawn to this man?
“I'd love to see Obama come in as president and see the house or senate go back to the Republicans.”
And yet we’re probably looking at a D. Pres. & D. senate, but I’m holding out *HOPE* that will *CHANGE*.
Go ahead, have the last word if you want, I’m done. But again, nice chat.